freagle

US foreign policy has always been atrocious, that has nothing to do with whether a party is fascist or not.

This is essentially what it boils down to. You think that the citizens of the USA going through the oppression of domestic policy isn’t fascism, but making it worse is fascism, but whatever the US does to other people can’t ever qualify as fascism.

Essentially, you believe fascism is aesthetics. Why did Nazism emerge? To be evil domestically? No. The domestic policy of the Nazis was a specific strategy to create a strong nationalism that would motivate the people of Germany to energize the Nazi’s foreign policy. Demonizing undesirables wasn’t the goal, it was the means to the goal. The goal was to subjugate the Slavs under an American-style apartheid occupation where the domestic population was sufficiently bonded through nationalism and xenophobia that they would energize the policies of the Third Reich to dominate others.

America is and always has been a fascist state. If you think Trump is bad you should study Jefferson. The entire American project is a genocidal Christian nationalist apartheid occupation of land they took by force. In so far as the Democrats continue mass murdering and genocidal policies, they are administering a fascist state. In so far as Republicans are purging the military of people who aren’t sufficiently willing to commit violence for the shared foreign policy aims of the elite, they are administering a fascist state. Obama is and was a fascist, and just like every politician before him, the good things he gave the people were a concession from the elite to the working class in exchange for their passivity and their willingness to energize the fascist state that is the USA.

I guess you can conveniently leave out why we and nato did all that, that’s pretty good faith

I need you to understand that this [the destruction of Libya] was illegal under international law and entirely illegitimate. There is no doctrine, except imperialism and fascism, where it is acceptable to destroy an entire country because a leader was behaving in a way domestically that we find morally objectionable. We don’t even need to get into the constant manufacturing of consent and how the assessment of Gaddafi’s actions may have been the result of propaganda. Even if we accept literally everything as true, it’s still a fascistic move to do what the US did. It’s literally unjustifiable. The fact that a liberal like you is willing to defend these actions is a sign of just how powerful the fascist propaganda is.

And it’s not like this wasn’t the analysis even before Obama. Clinton’s decision to use NATO to attack Yugoslavia was the world’s first ever “war for humanitarian intervention”. It was never acceptable to do that, and when Clinton did it there was a huge contingent of us that screamed that this was expanding the remit of the fascist USA to launch preemptive wars. And then what happened? Bush 2 expanded the remit even further and we screamed that this was bad. And what were we told? That this was a “Republican” problem and that we just need to vote D. And we didn’t believe it then either. So Obama gets elected and what happens? He goes even further in expanding the remit of the mass murder machine of the fascist empire of the USA.

It’s a non-stop death march. It’s been a non-stop death march since before the founding of the USA. It’s the same unending genocidal death march of European empire. It will never stop until we stop it. And we don’t stop it by voting in the controlled opposition that continuously expands the fascist state and enlists the citizens in energizing its fascist project.

Voting will not fix this

Yeah, I mean, you basically get it, you just think Trump is somehow special. Biden authored the Crime Bill, Clinton put it into law, they ruined millions of lives, mostly of black Americans. Obama/Biden and HRC created an absolutely massive crisis in Libya by funding, arming, training, and coordinating a terroristic “resistance” and then used NATO to bomb the most prosperous country in Africa into devastation where they now openly sell human slaves. The Ukraine situation requires you to imagine history started a few years ago - Bill Clinton openly and public wanted to include Russia in NATO, even after Putin took office. Hell, Clinton was instrumental in legitimizing Putin. The invasion of Ukraine is not something Trump caused and it’s not something he can end. If you have ever studied proxy conflicts like this one, the way you end the bloodshed is by surrendering and signing a treaty. The way you kill more people is by funneling more guns and mercenaries into the proxy. We’ve known this for decades. The US military literally justified some of its proxy wars with Youth Bulge Theory, stating that when there’s too many MAMs (military-aged males) that they could pose a threat to stability so it’s important to get ahead of youth bulges, create the conflicts before they become something we can’t control, and let the conflict kill off the youth bulge. The US is fucking sick.

As for everything else you listed, there’s an equally deadly Democrat equivalent. The embargo on Cuba means that the Cuban vaccine that prevents lung cancer is completely unavailable in the US. Democrats have deported/repatriated more people than Republicans have over the last 25 years. And the reason those immigrants are coming to us in the first place is because of bi-partisan destruction of South American and African countries.

Have fun explaining what’s “ignorant” about my grasp of history

at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election

This exactly.

if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this

It’s beyond enabling. They are architecting it, expanding it, normalizing it, and selling it.

Yes, the majority of emissions reduced during the 8 years under Obama were because fracking drove down the cost of natural gas below the cost of coal. The market drove a reduction in a coal usage in favor of fracked natural gas. But of course, that’s what happens when the only thing you control for is the one variable that makes headlines.

Speaking of which, during the first 4 years of Obama’s fracking boom, no one was measuring the leaks, and leaks from natural gas wells are methane, which traps 8,600% of the energy that CO2 does. They didn’t even start trying to fix this until 2016, and of course those fixes were easily rolled back by Trump, because the Ds can always expand the harm, but they can’t ever seem to contain it.

Sewer socialists have a long history of winning in the USA, and also of being outmaneuvered entirely by the fascists in both parties, purged, and having nearly all of their progress completely undone.

LOL

Because voters have figured out that voting doesn’t fucking matter. Once you realize that a) the country has always been run by a single fascist bloc b) with multiple fascist factions fighting for control and c) fronted by two PR firms with subsidiary PR firms that drive psychological manipulation of voters into believing that d) this time it really is the most important election in history and e) voting will fix it and f) if you vote correctly then the fascists you put in power will stop being fascist and g) actually make structural change - once that becomes obvious, voting is just not something people are motivated to do. And to be clear even people like me who believe all those things vote in vast numbers because it is a ritualized symbol and it has implications in social situations and dynamics. And even still huge numbers of people just don’t vote, which means massive numbers of people understand that the system is fully irredeemable.

And then Biden took office and he and his DOJ had the full Epstein files AND Project 2025 was openly published and explained and promoted AND Biden said “we have to stop these people” and then did what? That’s correct. He did nothing. He had literal documentation that DJT committed wanton infanticide and rape and human trafficking but did nothing. Nothing. Biden did nothing with the Epstein files while Harris told immigrants not to come to the US because we were absolutely going to continue torturing them at the border and nothing was gonna stop them, just like nothing was going to stop the Israeli genocide and the American participation in it.

No, sorry. The Democrats are not “less fascist” just like the Good Cop is still a cop.

The Ds aren’t going to save Ukraine either. The parties don’t make military decisions, the military does and the parties ratify it. That’s why Obama continued Bush 2’s projects, including invading Libya, which was on Bush’s list but he never got to it. Don’t forget Obama refused to give Ukraine any weapons and declared Venezuela a national security threat after Bush 2 tried to coup Chavez. Trump was the first president to approve arms transfers to Ukraine. I know it’s confusing because you think the parties are “evil” and “almost good” but they aren’t, they are both fascist imperialists and it’s why this all happens this way.

It’s also why the Obama administration expanded ICE and DHS and then deported 3M people with Tom Homan at the helm, just like Trump used all the Obama-era policies and even appointed Tom Homan himself to run deportations (though Trump hasn’t yet caught up to Obama’s numbers).

You’re falling for the manipulation. You somehow believe that the con artist saying “that guy has a knife, I’ll protect you, just give me your wallet” even after that con artist walked away and did NOTHING about the guy with the knife.

The evidence is clear. Both parties are maintainers of the world fascist empire, and one party appeals to the voters with fear of “the other” and the other party appears to the voters with the fear of “being bad people”.

We only have one non-fascist party at the moment

No. We don’t. Both parties are fascist. The Nazis studied the American system to learn how to build the Third Reich. The ruling class funded the Nazis in Germany and in the US. The US had a huge Nazi movement domestically. Who got purged? The anti-fascist communists. The US has spent over a century purging communist anti-fascists from all forms of meaningful power - media, art, politics, business. There are no non-fascists left in power. It’s just two PR firms selling the same fascism. The Rs are openly racist and the Ds do literally nothing to stop them and in fact create the very systems required for over fascist actions. That’s two fascist parties with a Good Cop / Bad Cop routine.

You realize that legislative votes that are bipartisan in nature and driven during a period when the beneficiaries are not voting is evidence for my position right? If Black voters were only voting at a rate of 10% - 15% (the highest turnout at the time was 25% in a few states), and Black voters were a minority of the total vote anyway, then Black voters voting for the right party had absolutely nothing to do with Civil Rights legislation passing.

And again, the actual evidence is that it was the riots and the organizing towards communism that drove the legislature to act, not voting habits. Both a Democrat and a Republican president, back to back, was forced to act not by a minority of a minority voting properly, obviously because literally the parties and had just won back to back opposite elections. And it wasn’t the legislature’s voting constituencies, because it was bipartisan to pass the legislation. And immediately after Nixon signed his administration’s civil rights changes, his administration then immediately went about destroying black communities by launching the war on drugs deliberately targeting black people and the white hippies who supported them. And BOTH parties legislators, the ones who had just voted together to address the civil rights situation, BOTH joined hands and supported the war on drugs and its racialized character, presiding over the most massive and rapid increase in racialized incarceration since abolition.

Both parties did both things, on both sides of the partisan reorientation! The Ds came up with the superpredator lies and propaganda AFTER they had recalibrated and “stopped” being the face of the openly racist South.

Because it wasn’t about voting properly. It wasn’t about getting the right parties in power. It was about threatening the status quo by organizing and being willing to shut things down, and being willing to become anti-capitalist, and to unify the working class against the rulers. THAT is what got meaningful change passed and THAT is why immediately after that meaningful change happened BOTH PARTIES IMMEDIATELY SET ABOUT TO UNDERMINE WITH VIOLENCE, LAW, POLICE, AND PRISONS.

The New Deal is the same thing. It was a response to labor organizing and building a movement to unseat the capitalist ruling class. The New Deal was explicitly designed to save capitalism. FDR said as much. It had nothing to do with voting and everything to do with the potential for the working class to unify and unseat the ruling class. Not only did the New Deal pass but the FDR administration also instituted racialized red lining and setup concentration camps for people who looked Asian and stole their property. People voted for that level of fascism? Or that’s just what the maintenance of empire demanded?

The entire US system is designed to prevent mass voting from having any effect. From the bicameral structure of the legislature to the staggered terms, to the electoral college, to the supreme court, voters were never supposed to have any real power. That’s what the Federalist Papers were all about. That’s ultimately what Liberal power is based on. Liberalism cannot survive mass movements. It can only disempower them in favor of maintaining capitalism. The minute a mass movement takes power, anti-imperialism and communism become the primary movement.

That’s why Ds and Rs both wanted to kill MLK after he came back from Vietnam. That’s why both Ds and Rs want to make sure workers stay hungry. That’s why both Ds and Rs deport millions. That’s why both Ds and Rs build and deploy the world’s most depraved psychotic military for genocidal projects and the destruction of mass movements anywhere in the world.

You’re making shit up. Women got the vote without voting for it. Black people got the vote without voting for it. Black people got civil rights while less than 10% of them were voting. The politicians that passed civil rights were in both parties and it wouldn’t have passed without bi-partisan support. Equally, it was both parties that designed, implemented, and sold the war on drugs to incarcerate more black people immediately following the passage of civil rights.

You are 100% correct that the Good Cop behaves materially different from the Bad Cop. The Good Cop doesn’t break the law as often, nor as loudly. They don’t act beligerently, they don’t attack you. What the Good Cop does is hangs out with the Bad Cop and appreciated how the Bad Cop makes it easier for the Good Cop to get compliance from the prisoner.

Yes, GI Joe and COBRA have different policies, but they’re created by the same author.

The Ds and the Rs share the responsibility of managing the USA, and the USA is a EuroCentric white supremacist monocultural genocidal psychotic violent belligerent entirely based on the Papal Doctrine of Discovery (don’t take my word for it, read RBG) and 100% committed to maintaining control over the stolen wealth of millions of trafficked humans, 100% committed to maintaining the system of racial categorization for the purposes of dividing the working class, ad 100% committed that the working class should never organize and overthrow the capitalists.

So yes, they do act differently. Because that’s the roles they play in project of managing empire. But whether you vote for one or the other won’t make the country less fascist, less psychotic, less violent, less carceral, less mass murdersome. Voting has never stopped or even slowed down the machine.

Historically, neither party has been a fewer bombs kind of party, and both parties have had their moments of conservation and environmental destruction, and their moments of expanding rights and destroying them.

I do understand the idea of a plurality of strategies. I just think that people need to understand which strategies actually have effects. Allowing people to believe in fairy tales is a recipe for disempowerment. Much like praying for a cancer cure, voting is one of those things that makes you feel better about yourself without actually achieving anything

Because minor concessions are obvious pandering without real benefit. Give incentives to buy EVs, sure, go for it. But if you expand the military and fossil fuel extraction and then launch wars where you’re dropping bombs all over the world it doesn’t really matter how many tax breaks you give to EV buyers.

This is what your commitment to your narrative has done to you. It has made you believe that there is a category of people who don’t vote because that is what they prefer, and you’re so committed that you are willing to make nonsense arguments that posit the existence of people who eat food but specifically will not and never will eat food if it’s in a restaurant.

Nothing about your narrative is reasonable. Give people something they want and they will pursue it

One thing you’ll eventually have to come to terms with is that it’s the government of the USA that is and has always been fascist and that the two parties aren’t going to stop the fascism that they both manage and benefit from. Biden had the Epstein files and did nothing. You think the voters are gonna stop fascism when the candidates are all fascists and fascist defenders?

Oh, sorry, so you’re saying Dems are constantly doing things their voting base disagrees with? So then why should people vote for them? You’re not making a strong argument for your position there.

You think Russian propaganda is the only source of anti-NATO sentiment in the entire world? Have you heard of Heusinger? Are you aware of the controversial decisions to staff NATO with Nazi officers? Heusinger was never even tried at Nuremberg.

LOL. You have no idea what accelerationism is if you think that what I said is in any way related to accelerationism. You’re just regurgitating things you’ve heard without understanding. Here, do some reading:

https://www.uniteamerica.org/articles/report-most-americans-votes-dont-matter-in-deciding-elections

https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/does-high-voter-turnout-help-one-party

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/forcing-people-vote-doesnt-change-outcome

LOL. You’re fucking amazing. You came to the conclusion that voter turnout programs only exist because they want voters to vote for them but literally won’t do anything that those voters want? That’s your conclusion? You couldn’t reason your way out of a paper bag. Which makes sense because you think an American who has been raised by Americans in America and consumed all the same anti-Russian propaganda you have consumed our whole lives is somehow having someone else’s thoughts when they have thoughts that disagree with the propaganda you and I have both been raised on. You are doing the meme.

Yeah, I don’t think that’s obvious at all. Voter turnout has very rarely been a deciding factor in elections, and the current analysis by researchers is that voter turnout doesn’t have partisan benefits. In essence, you get the same politicians regardless of voter turnout.