Is there / could there be a federated ebay?

You didn’t point me to a method of learning! That’s the main thing I’m griping about! Your advice was “Stop.”

I’m done, fuck off

Still putting words in my mouth. Still advocating for a usamerican approach to self betterment. Just because I don’t use jargon doesn’t mean what I’m saying isn’t true. Keeps people down + nuance = incentivizes unequal development. Same formula applies to the other half of our respective statements. At some point you need to get your head out of the textbook and actually start applying it. That’s the only way you’re going to have any opportunity to connect with people. If you continue with the mindset you seem to have, you’re never going to accomplish anything of significance.

But it you want your movement to grow you should actually try to be helpful. Telling someone to go organize elsewhere (aka fuck off) because he expressed a difficulty with an objectively difficult book belies an ingrained sense of usamerican rugged individualism. The entire fucking point of leaving the capitalist system is because it’s impersonal and keeps people down. You should be trying to lift people up instead. Otherwise you’re just creating another oppressive system.

At this point you have to be willfully misunderstanding what I’m saying. I haven’t called myself stupid or uneducated. I called myself less educated (unexplicitly in regards to ML thought), though even uneducated doesn’t reflect so much on me as it does my environment. And what I was saying is a movement for the masses has to be able to connect with the masses, which will include stupid (non-derogatory) people. I never once said that I won’t read Capital. That’s a faulty assumption you made. I just think it’s a bit ridiculous for that to be the entry point. You also have made no argument for why Capital has to be the entry point. I never said I just want answers, except in regards to what actions your movement is taking. Why would I ask for book recommendations if not to learn and understand?

Also you misquoted yourself and contradicted yourself in that first paragraph. You revolution was birthed not communism. And calling idealism “pretty silly” is insulting when you also said my thoughts come from idealism, thoughts that are not intended to be silly.

If my original post had said that I have a learning disability, would that have changed your response?

Stop being a prick. I literally asked you, in earnest, for reading recommendations. I’m not “trying to birth the revolution fully formed from [my] forehead”, I’m trying to understand what are the ML strategies that make it attainable. I haven’t actually asked what the revolution will look like, I’m asking what your movement is doing to prepare for this eventuality. Because it is a revolutionary ideology, yes? Is it or is it not an eventuality? If it is, then I think you should be allowed to talk about it.

I am still not discrediting Capital nor the value it has for building a greater understanding. I just don’t think it has the specific answers I’m looking for right this moment. Again, feel free to tell I’m wrong about that. But I should be able to determine my own path to understanding even if it’s out of order from the way you learned, because we’re different people with different thought processes and different material conditions. If I can’t, then what you have is not an ideology built on theory but a religion built on doctrine.

Either that or your username is accurate and I should just downvote and ignore you.

That sits better with me than your responses thus far, and I think I can see what you’re talking about. I am still curious of how a revolution works though? I understand the idea of waiting and being ready for the right moment to come, but the preparation for that and how it might look in the usa. Like how pre-ussr there were already soviets that met with and represented the peoples across the country. Also how the party works to make itself irrelevant on its path towards true communism (stateless classless moneyless society). How does the party work towards the end of the party?

I want to strengthen my worldview and those 2 questions are what I haven’t been able to get clear guidance on in my exploration in Communist thought. If you can’t or don’t want to answer those questions directly, I’d greatly appreciate some book recommendations that cover those topics.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding of Capital is that it’s about capitalism. Describing all the roles within it and relationships between them, as well as the mechanisms. Basically nothing directly about Communism. So probably not the book recommendation I’m looking for in this case.

To try and be clear with my thought process. I don’t think those questions come from a place of eagerness (though I can admit to having eagerness that mostly stems from wanting to escape the capitalist system), but from a place of trying to understand the full life cycle of Communism. If I can’t get those answers then I’m simply not able to accept the ideology as possible. And I don’t say that as a defiance, it’s just how my brain works. If i don’t have an understanding of why something is true, then I don’t have the ability believe it.

This is less of an ML community than you make it out to be (despite the .ml). There are a great many members of this instance that are not even leftists let alone Leninists. The actual comm I posted this question on is the largest ask community on the platform and the 7th largest comm overall. I was never explicitly looking for Communist organizing. I mentioned one org and my first complaint was about their actions (or lack thereof), not anything to do with ideology. I think you should be able to answer my question without doxxing yourself if that’s the concern, because I don’t need the details. I might even be satisfied with something like “there are some outreach programs that involve education on theory that we invite our local community into” because at least that’d be something. Instead I literally get “go away”.

I came here asking for advice without preaching any kind of message. You’ve had so many opportunities to give me small pieces of information that could put me on a path to becoming a better ally to your cause, instead you choose to push me away. I ask the question about how you’re building community because all I’ve seen here is you trying to lock it down so only the privileged few can remain. That is anti-coalitional and the opposite of organizing (anti-organizing).

Honestly, I hope you’re a fed, because otherwise the modern ML movement is going absolutely nowhere.

Wrong, and you’re still not hearing what I’m saying. I never actually expressed an unwillingness to read Capital. I’ve tried and failed multiple times. I may try again with some of the ideas that you brought up here actually, even though you brought them up as an attack on me rather than trying to be helpful (at least that’s how it appeared). What I’m saying, and what I meant when I said “anti-organizing”, is that the way you’ve handled this conversation will only make your movement more insular and out of touch.

The third time you’re making me ask a version of this question. What are you doing to make your movement into something the masses will actually agree to follow?

Just because I seek out real world guidance or do web searches doesn’t mean I successfully find the information that will actually help me. Especially given our current material conditions with regards to everyone’s struggle to maintain a decent standard of living and the continual enshittification of the internet including the search engines. So I tried seeking out guidance here and the main thing you had to say about that was “Stop.” And then told me to go organize with someone else.

What are you doing to help your movement grow?

Ideally, I’d talk to a chef I respect for recommendations of what makes a good knife or good sources to get one.

You’re making me reiterate the first point from my previous comment. Why would you assume I know about all those resources? You could’ve just said, “I think Capital is a very important read, especially for explicitly Communist groups. Here’s some resources that could help you get through it.” And then it wouldn’t have turned into an argument. The way you currently talk about this stuff is damaging to your movement. You’re making a lot of bad faith assumptions about who I am and what I think, and using those assumptions to tell me to fuck off. That was my main contention in the first place, you’re never going to build anything useful if you can’t meaningfully engage with stupid people. What you’re doing now is anti-organizing.

Yeah, the troll is making a lot of assumptions about where I’m at. I tried to read Capital multiple times and have failed each time. And I recognize that theory should be an important aspect for any leftist movement that wants a chance at success. My bigger point in that argument is that any movement that claims to be for all people needs to be willing to build community and coalition with all people, even if they’re completely ignorant of theory (which I am not).

1. Based on other things you’ve said, a better reaction would be to offer resources that can help me understand some of the deeper concepts. That would show you have a real movement you’re working with and a real interest in helping people. Otherwise it just seems like your motivation comes from a mindset of superiority.

2. This is the first time you’ve said that the “Stop.” was specifically about joining Communist orgs.

3. The mention of joining an anarchist or electoralist org doesn’t actually answer the question I had. Obviously electoralism is inherently not revolutionary. And I know that anarchists exist, the question was about how to find people I can organize with.

4. Those are 2 funny things (lumpen and mass line) to bring up in this conversation. Given that the person who pioneered the latter disagreed (to a degree) with the former and also likely didn’t read Capital before leading a successful revolution. Also one of the most powerful leftist movements in the USA actually organized around the lumpen (Black Panthers).

Coming to this thread because it’s a lot of what I was trying to say with the hypothetical, and you seem to agree with it here. Do you literally think it’s impossible to organize without reading Capital? If I can manage to read this one book (with no help from others), then everything will be explained and I’ll be able to organize effectively?

That’s your problem. You won’t even have the conversation with someone less educated than you.

But how are you preparing for the revolution?

Here’s a hypothetical. You have all the theory and your group of people for your academic discussions on what that means and how it applies to the modern day, while making sure to keep anyone out who’s unwilling or unable to complete your reading list. One day, in the not too distant future, the time comes. There’s a crisis and the conditions for revolution have arrived and the people are calling for it. How do you react without a coalition? Who’s going to follow you? How do you actually takeover the government without building a community and infrastructure to do so?

I think this belies an incorrect understanding of equality. We cannot and should not expect every person to have the same level of understanding, that’s not how people work. Equality of outcome is an impossible goal, what is possible is equality of opportunity. Obviously there should be people in the movement with true expertise of the theory in question, but other experts are needed and most people aren’t experts in multiple things.

It’s not just about the revolution itself, it’s about planning the world that comes after it. That means needing experts in agriculture, medicine, architecture, supply chains, manufacturing, cooking, cleaning, and so much more. Even organizing and battle strategies are different skill sets than the ability to read and internalize what is essentially a doctoral thesis, especially one that is about 10x longer and written over 100 years ago.

Also, any movement worth doing should be able to include people with no expertise at all. People who are ready to work for that better world even if they don’t understand all of the intricacies of how it functions or the path to get there. None of that should take away from their equality.

Yeah I’m aware of that part, I was looking for tips for how to find the offline people

I’m not unwilling to read and theorize, but Capital is extremely long and dense. Expecting every member of a movement to be at that level of academia is a great way to alienate vast swaths of people and will seriously limit any real revolutionary potential. I’d rather be apart of a people’s movement that includes the illiterate than strictly surround myself with intellectuals. How the fuck are we supposed to build a better world for everyone if we’re unwilling to work with all types of people?